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My dad and my doctorate
16 August 2011
By Tennie Videler
I didn’t actually plan to write a post on this topic, but I have succumbed to the subtle nudges following Sarah’s post on keeping it in the family. My father said all those years ago that he didn’t feel a British doctorate was as valuable as a Dutch one. Why? The following are my guesses and are really meant as a starting point for discussion! Do people know of situations in other countries as I am only comparing to that in the Netherlands?
- It only lasts three years! How can it be as thorough as a degree that takes at least 4 years?
- In the sciences, people are eligible to enter their UK doctoral degree with much less research experience than their Dutch counterparts, who will have done a year’s research project during their undergraduate (equivalent to MSc)
- Postgraduate researchers are students in the UK, but members of staff in most of Europe, with pension schemes, maternity pay etc.
- Related to the last two points, he perceived UK doctoral candidates to be more closely supervised and less autonomous
- There is no requirement to publish any of your research in peer reviewed journals to gain your degree in the UK(instead you are required to make a contribution to knowledge)
- In Holland theses are printed and bound in an A5 format and handed out to lots of people.
- The British viva is a low key affair- it is really between you and your two examiners, generally without scrutiny. In the Netherlands it is a ceremonious occasion (I would argue this somewhat undermines its rigour), after the thesis has passed a ‘reading committee’ of several internal and external examiners. During the ceremony the candidate is flanked by two helpers (paranymphs) who in theory are allowed to help answer questions but in practice act much as bridesmaids/ best men. One of their duties is to help organise the party afterwards, which is on a similar scale to weddings! (Dutch PGRs are expected to start saving for this and the cost of printing the thesis from the start)
- One of the Dutch requirements is a list of theses (stellingen). These are very wide ranging and ideally show off the wit of the candidate (although there are always some relating to the actual research). Tangential ones I can remember off the top of my head and bear translation are along the lines of ‘It is doubtful that Bax, Max and Zax choose to publish in JACS for purely scientific reasons’ or ‘a true gentleman can open even a revolving door for a lady’.
- Revenge. After my teenage taunts that Chemistry was a more rigorous science than woolly Biology he might well just have been getting his own back…
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Blanka Sengerová17 August 2011 at 12:10 PM
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I love the way that you always manage to find 9 things for those lists, Tennie, impressed! I do agree with some of your Dad's arguments (or the arguments that you think he might have made), but am not sure whether it makes the British PhD necessarily less valid.
Starting with the last point, isn't structural biology almost partly chemistry anyway (thinking back to Steitz, Yonath Nobel prize in chemistry, together with some of the RNAP structure function ones)? :o)
>>Postgraduate researchers are students in the UK, but members of staff in most of Europe, with pension schemes, maternity pay etc.
I agree that this is an issue that should be addressed. Although you could argue that the US is even further the wrong way, because postdocs, as far as I understand, don't often have the same rights as tenured staff (pensions, maternity pay, etc). And here students take 5 years upwards for their PhD, with 7 not being an exception.
>>There is no requirement to publish any of your research in peer reviewed journals to gain your degree in the UK
Yes, maybe there should be, although it does then make you (as the student) much more at the mercy of the supervisor and them being able to push papers out quickly enough. Maybe?
As for the public defense, I always liked the idea of that and I think the Nordic countries work in the same way (my brother actually had to do a public defense even for his MSc thesis, registered at a Norwegian university). From what I gather, some departments in the UK (ours included) are experimenting with PhD candidates giving a seminar prior to their viva, which gives them a chance to present their work in a way that is currently not available to them. I'm not sure if it's ever going to be made compulsory though.
In terms of time spent on the PhD, many people were often funded for three years and actually took four, but I think many funding bodies are acknowledging that at least in the sciences 3 years is simply not enough to do your lab work and write up so are moving towards 4-year studentships.
From what I've been told, I think Czech PhD students are paid a pittance of a stipend, are used by their supervisors as cheap labour for teaching undergraduates and therefore it often takes quite a long time to complete a PhD. But all this is hearsay and I would love to hear from other people who can bring in experience of the PhD in countries other than UK and the Netherlands.
Sarah Davies19 August 2011 at 06:42 PM
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Thanks for this, Tennie - it's really interesting, though to be honest I feel like your point 9 is probably key (families are like that...)! The only place other than the UK I have any experience of working in is the US, but I find your point 4 - "UK doctoral candidates to be more closely supervised and less autonomous" - interesting. My experience has been that US students - at least in the place I'm working - have far, far more supervision than UK ones - to the extent that at times they don't get much choice about what to study. My PhD research was highly self-directed (in a way that was not always positive - though it did mean I gained experience quickly and had a lot of ownership of my research) so I can't help but feel that the students here are being spoon-fed a little too much. I guess your father would agree!
I would also agree with you that the ceremony of European vivas can undermine the terror, if not the rigour, of the process somewhat. I think being grilled for an indefinite period of time by two world-class scholars in your field is a far more daunting prospect than a public viva - though, as Blanka says, it would be nice to see the two things combined and so get the best of both worlds.
Simon Smith21 August 2011 at 06:46 PM
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Great, Tennie. Point 6 explains why one Dutch academic was able to send me a printed copy of her PhD when emailed about it. I always regret not getting any extra copies of my own bound and printed - too poor (or too stingy) at the time!
Your post also makes me wish I'd asked my grandfather more about his PhD, because I don't really know much about his studies (in the 1930s), though my impression is that he had as much if not more autonomy as a British social science / humanities doctorate has today. It was effectively a split-site PhD, because he gained a doctorate from both Leeds and the Sorbonne, and naturally the Paris defence was far more ceremonial.
Claire Louise Hyder23 August 2011 at 07:30 PM
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Hi,
I'm a Brit doing a PhD in Finland. While it takes longer here I do agree with your Dad that the UK PhD doesn't seem as valuable as the UK PhD.
1. Here our PhD takes anywhere between 4-7 years. The lucky ones who finish in 4 years, either have had a good project or worked in the lab as summer workers and then did their Masters degree and continued from there. Usually we do have funding, but that isn't always the case. However, we do have opportunities to apply for funding if need be. The reason it takes so long is that we have publishing requirements and requirements to gain credits from extra studies. We have to have at least one 1st, 2nd and 3rd author paper. Reviews don't count and usually if the research articles are in lower regarded journals you may need some extra papers for the Uni to grant you permission to write your thesis. It depends on the Uni and even the Department.
2. The usual rule is that an MSc is required before embarkingon a PhD, however I somehow manged to circumvent that one.
3. We only have rights when salaried. If you are on grants or stipends then everyone tries to screw you over without you getting any benefits e.g. tax man and mandatory private insurances.
4. How much autonomy you get depends on your supervisor. I would say that maybe considering the publishing requirements and the fact that Graduate Schools only provide 4 years of funding, less autonomy would be better.
5. We have to print out lots of theses too... I guess they just gather dust on peoples bookshelves.
6. We have public defenses, no helpers and it can be as long or as short as necessary. The public are even allowed to ask questions, but I have never seen that happen yet. Usually if you have spent ridiculously long doing your thesis/studies this is practically a formality, however it does depend on the opponent. Some are harsher than others. The defense is surrounded by lots of ceremony and by law you have to provide dinner for the person refereeing and the opponent. However, usually you end up having to provide food and evening entertainment for closer to 50 people.
Generally I like the Finnish PhD, because when I'm done I know I will be a completely independent researcher who will have written several published literature reviews as well as having several original research articles plus some collaborative works. As such I will have more chance to acquire funding for a post-doc if I so wish to go down that route. On the other hand, if I had stayed in the UK then maybe I would be finished now and about to embark on my second post-doc position....
Tennie Videler23 August 2011 at 10:01 PM
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Thanks, Claire- fascinating to hear about the Finnish doctorate, it sounds more similar to the Dutch than the British- good luck with it. Interesting point you raise about 'maybe less autonomy would be better' considering the funding restrictions...
Simon- to add to the mix maybe I should have said that my father was a lecturer before he started his doctorate in a new department. Much as was the case about 5 or so years ago for people doing nursing doctorates in this country.
Christine Fernandez12 September 2011 at 01:43 PM
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An absolute eye-opener Tennie, this post of yours. Many were asking me about the difference doing a PhD in the UK and my home country, Malaysia, and this link quite easily point out the difference. Mainly the difference between a Malaysian doctrate degree and the UK PhD are points 1-5 really!
In Malaysia PhD candidates would have done their MSc (research) for about 2 years.
They are also expected to published their doctoral rsearch work in peer reviewed journals before graduating which means most of them struggle to finish within the min PhD research duration (3 years).
They usually pursue research on an independent basis with lesser supervision.
And they usually fund their own uni study fees, which is way much cheaper than in the UK!
The viva is similar to the UK standard, closed-type with no public audiance and in the end most of the time the published PhD thesis sits on the Uni library shelf until some other student borrows it for reference.
Jonathan Branney14 September 2011 at 11:36 AM
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Thanks for that Tennie. In defense of the British PhD I'd like to mention the following:
1. Since In the UK we can complete a doctorate faster, this suggests to me better time-management and self-motivation
2. If in this country we can do enter a doctorate with less research experience, it's because we reward quality, not quantity!
3. I am a a fully-paid up PhD member of staff, with pension and paternity leave and annual leave rights (although I must confess to having European funding behind me). My close colleague is a full-paid member of staff also (with English funding)
4. Some of the blog posts I've read in What's up.... would suggest students often have trouble getting hold of their supervisors, quite the opposite of the molly-coddling accusation
5. As part of my contract for my British PhD I am required to publish at least one article in a peer-reviewed journal
6. What's to stop us making a lovely book of our theses to hand out? Well for one, no one wants to read it!, so what's the point if not a vanity project?!
7. The party sounds good. Perhaps we should adopt that....
8. Stellingen? British PhD researchers prefer the time-honoured tradition of displaying their wit properly, in the pub
9. All human endeavours ("progress" does not exist) boil down to the vagaries of interpersonal bickering
Tennie Videler14 September 2011 at 12:08 PM
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Thanks Christine, the Malaysian model sounds like a mix between the Dutch and UK models, open to debate of course whether it's the best of both worlds!
Thanks Jonathan, that made me laugh!
I agree there is nothing to stop you having a party after your viva.It is seen as presumptious to organise one as there is still the possibility of 'failing' your viva. The one I had after mine was therefore called soemthing along the lines of a 'pass or fail' party (and a good time was had..).
on point 6- I hear that these days the vanity of printed books has been replaced by electronic versions...
Simon Smith14 September 2011 at 04:04 PM
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>> 6. What's to stop us making a lovely book of our theses to hand out? Well for one, no one wants to read it!, so what's the point if not a vanity project?!
Come on Jonathan, don't lower the tone: I think you're confusing academic publishing with commerce! If it's published it's contributing to the stock of scientific knowledge - and even if no one reads it, someone will surely cite it ;-)
Sarah Davies14 September 2011 at 10:38 PM
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On the book thing, I actually had my thesis turned into a book for free - I was approached by this company, based in Germany, in what I assume was a mass mailing of people with recently-completed PhDs. I had to do all the formatting and layout myself, but they turned it into a softback book with a picture on the front and everything and sent me a copy. It's now on Amazon; I can't imagine that anyone has bought it (who reads PhD theses?) but I guess it's nice that I have a nice-looking version of my thesis. So anyone with Dutch PhD envy could just go ahead and do the same thing...